ScriptUO
General => Off Topic => Topic started by: Cerveza on December 03, 2010, 10:00:56 AM
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Yesterday my 11 yr old 5th grade son was slapped on the shoulder by a teacher. Not a "Hiya" but a "SHUT UP" kind of a slap, out of anger.
It was his female computer teacher.
Beginning of class, class room is very noisy. Teacher calls for students to sit down and be quiet, they don't really respond.
My son has a question (What's a CPU) but decides NOT to shout for the teacher because the boy next to him already has loudly called for her. The teacher answers that boys question and my son says "Mrs. XXX I have a question". She SLAPS him on the shoulder and tells him to go out in the hallway till he's ready to behave.
He doesn't move, she says "Are you ready to behave"? He says yes.
He sits quietly the rest of class... then after class he goes back to his classroom and tells the substitute teaching yesterday what happened and asks if he can go to the office. She agrees.
At the office he tells the story to the substitute Dean of Students. She tells this to the Principal who comes in to hear it directly from my son. The Principal and my son then go to the Computer room to speak with the teacher. She says "I don't recall slapping him" and says "If I did then I'm sorry".
My son calls me after school so I head over to talk with the Principal. His attitude is "oh it's all over now, she apologized", my attitude is "How can you let a teacher strike a student? and if there are allegations of this happening, how can you NOT contact a parent". I can tell I'm getting no where with him.
I pick up my wife from her school and we go back to the school. It's like 4:30 and everyone's gone, BUT the main school is open for a basketball game, so we decide to see if the main Principal for both schools is available.
When we get there we see the Dean of Students and get a private room where we tell her the entire story. She says she'll speak with everyone today and get back with my. I missed her call earlier and am waiting for a call back now.
So... what do we do?
The slap wasn't hard enough to leave any type of mark, but that's not entirely the point. My son is a good student and would never make any of this up.
Now he doesn't want to go to computer class, and the Dean said he wouldn't have to if he was uncomfortable. So far she seems like the only one taking any of this serious. The Principal of the K-5 (the guy I sat down with) is a non-caring *bleep*. As of yesterday, I have 0 respect for him. "Oh well she apologized so it's ok now". And that apology - "IF I did slap him THEN I'm sorry" which is basically saying "your son is a liar and I'm covering my ass".
sux.... waiting for the callback... not even sure what we're going to do or even what we want to accomplish from this....
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Your Son also has witnesses to the "slapping" in the Classroom. Someone else had to have also seen it. Maybe the student sitting next to him or behind him. You don't really need anymore ammunition, but it does relieve the point where it is your Son's word vs. the Teacher. If it gets to any kind of arbitration or further discussion, then you can use that student's words too. The Teacher should not be able to just blow it off with "I don't remember slapping him, but if I did, then I am Sorry". Teachers need to be held accountable for their actions, more so when it is 'Negative'. The least that I would expect if I were in your shoes is to have the Teacher apologizes directly to my Son and not blow it off as if it didn't happen!
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Seemed like the school was slow balling this... I was told by the Dean of Students that she was unable to get with the teacher involved because of her class load.
I told her that sounded like a cop out. If a student struck a teacher it would be immediate, you guys didn't even bother calling me when a teacher struck my son.
The Dean just called me back and said that a meeting with her, the Dean of Students, the Principal of this school and the teacher involved was set up for Monday. I asked that the District Principal attend as well.
She said that the teacher was very upset, I said "At my son???" and she said "No, just very emotional about the whole situation". Yeah, no kidding. You hit a student and his parents aren't the type to back down. You should be upset.
My son did everything right. A teacher slapped him. He didn't make a scene and waited for class to end, then told his teacher (happened to be a sub) and asked if he could go to the office to report it to the admin.
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let us know what gets resolved... ive had more than my fair share of school stories...
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Something you should be throwing around with them is, "If your son told you this story, how would you react?" :) Or better yet, "What if this was your child struck by his teacher? How would you be handling this then?" Should get a better response I would think... heh
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When the Dean first called and said she was having trouble contacting the teacher I told her that it felt like they weren't taking this as serious as they needed to, and that I can't believe that the "Dean of Students" is having trouble speaking with a teacher.
She apologized and said she would definitely get with the teacher to find out what happened.
My son said that the Dean also called a couple of students in from my son's class. The one who yelled for the teacher (next to my son) and another student. The yeller didn't see anything, but the other student confirmed the teacher striking my son. The Dean didn't mention that in our conversation.
We've decided that if we get a sincere apology (by we I mean my son) from this teach, and my son feels comfortable returning to her classroom, then things are done. If the apology is a veiled half-azz'd "well I don't recall doing this but if I did", then we'll let everyone know on the spot that we intend on speaking with the school board and perhaps the state school board as well.
We'll see what happens on Monday.
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My aproach on tis would be humble and information getting to start off. But if you child does not feel comfortable enough to go back to the class and he does not get a humble sorry that I did hit you !! I would take it to the highest court in the land. So the teacher 1. will always remember the next time she gets angry to keep her hands to her self. Is this not what the teachers tell their students to do in class? or 2. She can maybe get a job picking trash up off the highway.
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I remember the days of "corporal punishment" in the classroom..I had it dealt out to me on more then one occasion in both grade school, and jr. high. While I understand that in this case your son did not deserve a slap as he wasnt doing anything wrong, I overall just dont see a slap on the shoulder being that bad a thing. Especially not compared to a wooden paddle with holes drilled into it so it can achieve more speed as it desends.
I realize that times have changed (and NOT necessarily for the better IMHO) but back "in the day" if you had the guts to even come home and tell your parents you got a "swat" in class you would most likely get another from them, and they would call the teacher and THANK them for disiplining thier son/daughter.
Sorry cerv, not meaning any disrespect here but I believe your son is owed an appoligy for getting a slap on the shoulder when he didnt deserve it as it doesn't appear that he was in the wrong, however I dont think the actual slap deserves as much as is being put into it.
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That's some serious stuff. I think you ought to have your kid removed from that class. Maybe the teacher was having a bad day, but (just like a husband) a teacher who hits once will hit again. And again.
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I remember the days of "corporal punishment" in the classroom..I had it dealt out to me on more then one occasion in both grade school, and jr. high. While I understand that in this case your son did not deserve a slap as he wasnt doing anything wrong, I overall just dont see a slap on the shoulder being that bad a thing. Especially not compared to a wooden paddle with holes drilled into it so it can achieve more speed as it desends.
I realize that times have changed (and NOT necessarily for the better IMHO) but back "in the day" if you had the guts to even come home and tell your parents you got a "swat" in class you would most likely get another from them, and they would call the teacher and THANK them for disiplining thier son/daughter.
Sorry cerv, not meaning any disrespect here but I believe your son is owed an appoligy for getting a slap on the shoulder when he didnt deserve it as it doesn't appear that he was in the wrong, however I dont think the actual slap deserves as much as is being put into it.
Back to what TopTwo was saying. I do believe in corporal punishment in schools when it is deserved and I believe it should be reimplimented back into the school system, but with alot of proof and alot of checks and balances in place also. So the wrong person does not get the wrong end of the stick literally.
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We'll find out her attitude on Monday.
I'm not against Corporal Punishment. This isn't Corporal Punishment. She got pissed off at the class and took it out on my son.
I'm glad he took the approach he did, it means we've taught him how to deal with a situation like this. I hate to think what *could* have happened with some other student who may have even fought back... if the teacher isn't allowed to strike a student and they do, what would happen to a student who actually struck back??
I'm really hoping for the "I am so sorry, I lost my temper and took it out on you, for that I sincerely apologize and hope that you can forgive me, it will never happen again". Because anything short of that might mean this not ending quite yet.
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Got this email from the teacher involved yesterday (Saturday). The incident was on Thursday.
Dear Mr. & Mrs. ,
It is with a heavy heart that I write this email to you as yesterday I found out
that you truly believe I could intentionally hurt your child. Mr. {Principal} and Mrs.
{Dean of Students} both came to my classroom to tell me that you had taken {my son}'s
complaint all the way to the Superintendent.
As a parent myself, I understand the desire to protect your children when you
think they have been unfairly treated. However, I wonder how much of my side was
considered when your family accused me of hitting {my son}. This accusation became
a knife in my heart on Thursday, and then knowledge of your discussion with Mrs.
{Dean of Students} twisted it. The pain I felt was great and I tried on three different
occasions to explain to Mr. {Principal} and Mrs. {Dean of Students} that I couldn't possibly deal
with the situation on Friday. Each time, they left me in tears.
I was told that they think all you wanted was for me to apologize to {my son}, and
I stated that I had already apologized to him and explained that IF I had truly
hit him, it was an accident. My hand was between him and another student and
when I stepped back there is a good chance that my hand hit his shoulder.
As a teacher, I am going to stand up for myself. I will not apologize for this
incident again. What I will apologize for is that {my son} felt that he could not
come to me at the time of the incident and tell me that I had hurt him. I see
now I should have followed through with my initial intent to send him into the
hall so that we could talk about his behavior. He was speaking out of turn in a
loud manner and that is why the incident is so vivid in my mind. I had just
corrected his behavior as well as the behavior of the whole class.
His class had come into the room in a very noisy manner, and I had been told by
the substitute that she had had a bad morning. Since I had several directions to
get through in order to complete the assignment, I needed them to quiet down and
listen. As you already know, I am not only teaching Mrs. {other teacher} class at
this time. Mrs. {other teacher} class comes with them as well. This means I have 26
students in the classroom and 3 adults. Several of these students make teaching
on a good day difficult. I am happy to say, {my son} is not one of them.
Eventually, the class did settle down, and we were able to finish the assignment
successfully. I remember {my son} working and at one point he asked Mrs. {other teacher}
for help. I can't help but wonder if he told Mrs. {other teacher} that I had hit him? If
he had, I am sure we could have addressed the situation right then and there.
When I dismissed the class, I did give them a star, not for the way they came
into the room, but for the way they had finally gotten to work. I understand
what it is like to have a substitute and how sometimes this will affect
behaviors outside of the classroom.
Imagine my surprise when Mr. {Principal} brings {my son} into my room, so that he can
accuse me of hitting him. It makes no sense to me why he would have waited 30-40
minutes to tell me if I had done this. He made no complaint in my room of being
hurt. He didn't request to go to the nurse for an ice pack. However I listened
to the complaint and walked myself through the incident, and came to the
conclusion that I must have accidentally hit him and for that, I apologized.
I truly think this incident has been taken out of context. I apologize for that.
I don't know why you didn't come directly to me before going to Mr. {Superintendent}. You
may have tried and found that I wasn't there. I attend class on Tues. & Thurs.
at 4:00, so I have to leave at 3:30 on those days. However, I am easily
assessable via email, or you could have waited until Friday morning.
Finally, I will apologize to the administration, for refusing to address the
situation in a timely fashion. I needed the night to pray about this, to ask
others to pray about it, and to get advice from my husband.
My life speaks for itself. If you have been on the computer lab website and have
read my biography, you will know that I have a passion for teaching that started
at a young age. I pride myself in this. In fact, next to the doorway in my
classroom, I have a plaque that states simply, "A hundred years from now, it
will not matter what kind of car I drove, what kind of house I lived in, how
much money I had in the bank...but the world may be a better place because I
made a difference in the life of a child." I want to make a difference in every
child's life including {my son}'s.
I know that I am a misunderstood teacher at {school}. Maybe that is why this
has gotten out of hand. Hopefully though, you can now understand me a little
better now.
Sincerely,
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Really not too bad. Nothing like "yeh, but...." to piss me off. Are you better with it?
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I guess it's not for me to say - but I think I would now drop this if I were you but only for one reason. The reason is that it will probably have a very negative impact on your son (unless you plan to move). Teachers talk among themselves and it may have other impacts down the road that you might never see. My wife is a teacher, I am a professor and I have two boys (now grown - 1 captain in the army the other a professor) from this background I can assure you that every time I fought the school system (and won) my sons somehow suffered down the road. Not that it ever stopped me if I thought I was right. But as my Dad used to say to me " AJ - never hang yourself on a small cross"
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I guess it all boils down to her attitude in the meeting. If she still contends that she doesn't think she struck my son, then we'll mention "school board", "state board of education", "letter to the editor"....
The way her email sounds shes all "oh poor me". I can't say I feel any better after reading that.
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My two cents....
Everyone has the right not to be struck, including your son. If someone just up and hit your child out on the street (aside from getting violent yourself) you would (should) call the cops. If someone up and hit you on the street, you *should* call the cops. Your son is smart, and did the right thing by bringing this up to the proper adults. It sounds as if he did not do anything wrong here, but even if he did, slapping him was not the proper action or punishment on the teacher's part. If you drop this, what would you be teaching your son? Everything has consequences, the consequence of this teacher's actions need to be dealt with.
If it was my kid, I would be blazing mad. You should call the police and file an assault report. Then call the school board and demand action be taken against this teacher. I realize the Dean is involved, but this is bigger than the Dean, the county school board needs to be involved. She should at the least have to take anger management classes, and if she refuses, perhaps teaching is not the right career for her.
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I deserved every smack I got (and didn't get), but my two cents (or more):
1. Make sure you have all YOUR bases covered (son's not lying, no prior incidents/issues with teacher, etc) so nothing surprising can pop up
2. Lay out the claim for them (them being the school board or whatever) with all your evidence:
- Son was afraid of teacher and therefore acted appropriately by waiting and addressing it with another teacher (student trusts teacher which is good!)
- Witnessed by at least one other student
- Parents were not contacted when student informed them of abuse (and you better believe they would have called you if YOUR son hit the TEACHER)
- Such an emotional teacher (since that was the excuse for not handling in a timely manner) maybe should not be in charge of 26 students (even with aids)
- No precautionary action taken by the district (often a teacher (or student) would be suspended with or without pay until the accusations were resolved unless it could be immediately determined that the accusations were false)
3. Bring all the emails and a timeline of events to any meeting
4. Let them decide the appropriate action, but make your expectations clear (true apology to child, parent, etc. in person not email)
Those are my amateur "legal" opinions
My personal opinions:
- A smack is small (in the large scheme of things that COULD happen these days), but teacher's are expected to remain calm even under pressure (think fire drills, shooter in school, etc) and a noisy classroom should NOT be a pressure situation for a teacher
- An email is a cop-out. Accusations such as this should be handled face to face and in a timely manner. Also, the email lays out the exact details of that day but the only thing she DOESNT remember is slapping your son....interesting....*ponders*
- Be proud of your son. He definitely did the right thing by approaching another teacher with the issue and I can imagine he did NOT want to confront the accused teacher for fear or getting smacked again (at least that's how I probably would have felt). I would also compliment the dean for taking it seriously and the teacher who he confided in for not covering up for another teacher and telling your son to drop it.
I worked at a daycare and was in charge of 23 three-year olds with the help of 1 other person. One thing it taught me is patience and letting things roll off you. We had parents whose children made accusations and luckily the parents were responsible, approached us or the director, and usually discovered their kids may not have told the whole story. I never got defensive because I knew I had never done anything wrong and keeping a level head usually shows the parents your ability to control situations that arise. I watch 3 special needs kids for a couple hours each week (one of which has hearing problems, anger management, and ADHD issues). He'll throw ridiculous tantrums that many parents would not be able to handle, but I've never even raised my voice with him. Calmness always prevails. The only thing that can make my blood boil is a roughing the passer/kicker call in football these days! ;) (My fiance actually gets upset with me because she thinks I remain too calm at times and should get angry more LOL)
Good luck!
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I deserved every smack I got (and didn't get), but my two cents (or more):
1. Make sure you have all YOUR bases covered (son's not lying, no prior incidents/issues with teacher, etc) so nothing surprising can pop up
2. Lay out the claim for them (them being the school board or whatever) with all your evidence:
- Son was afraid of teacher and therefore acted appropriately by waiting and addressing it with another teacher (student trusts teacher which is good!)
- Witnessed by at least one other student
- Parents were not contacted when student informed them of abuse (and you better believe they would have called you if YOUR son hit the TEACHER)
- Such an emotional teacher (since that was the excuse for not handling in a timely manner) maybe should not be in charge of 26 students (even with aids)
- No precautionary action taken by the district (often a teacher (or student) would be suspended with or without pay until the accusations were resolved unless it could be immediately determined that the accusations were false)
3. Bring all the emails and a timeline of events to any meeting
4. Let them decide the appropriate action, but make your expectations clear (true apology to child, parent, etc. in person not email)
Those are my amateur "legal" opinions
My personal opinions:
- A smack is small (in the large scheme of things that COULD happen these days), but teacher's are expected to remain calm even under pressure (think fire drills, shooter in school, etc) and a noisy classroom should NOT be a pressure situation for a teacher
- An email is a cop-out. Accusations such as this should be handled face to face and in a timely manner. Also, the email lays out the exact details of that day but the only thing she DOESNT remember is slapping your son....interesting....*ponders*
- Be proud of your son. He definitely did the right thing by approaching another teacher with the issue and I can imagine he did NOT want to confront the accused teacher for fear or getting smacked again (at least that's how I probably would have felt). I would also compliment the dean for taking it seriously and the teacher who he confided in for not covering up for another teacher and telling your son to drop it.
I worked at a daycare and was in charge of 23 three-year olds with the help of 1 other person. One thing it taught me is patience and letting things roll off you. We had parents whose children made accusations and luckily the parents were responsible, approached us or the director, and usually discovered their kids may not have told the whole story. I never got defensive because I knew I had never done anything wrong and keeping a level head usually shows the parents your ability to control situations that arise. I watch 3 special needs kids for a couple hours each week (one of which has hearing problems, anger management, and ADHD issues). He'll throw ridiculous tantrums that many parents would not be able to handle, but I've never even raised my voice with him. Calmness always prevails. The only thing that can make my blood boil is a roughing the passer/kicker call in football these days! ;) (My fiance actually gets upset with me because she thinks I remain too calm at times and should get angry more LOL)
Good luck!
I would do as maddog has already suggested and cover all your bases. But everything she just stated in the letter just made me even madder than I would have been before the letter. If all the bases are covered and their is not an ounce of doubt in your mind that she did this. I would have her job on a platter with side of avocadoes anda cheese dip with nachoes and savor teh taste after she is out with all the other people trying to find jobs. Then let her think about ever lifting a hand to another child 1/3 or half her size. she is supposed to be the adult and the parents are always supposed to be right no matter what if you want to keep your job as a teacher. I was married to a teacher for many years and have seen and heard about all the fall out from a teacher with loose hands.
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I think you need to decide what is your ultimate aim in this situation. Punish the teacher or punish your son. That email the teacher sent you was pretty ridiculus. But at the end of the day a slap is a slap.. I'm pretty certain that will not happen again by any of his teachers. Personally at this stage I would pass on the email to the dean etc along with a note saying something to the effect even thow you do not find it satificatory that you are willing to let it go as long as thier is no repeat situations etc etc. I probably would also face to face the teacher and tell her simular.
Good luck with what ever you decide. And your son is to be congratulated on his composure and his ability to see the correct way to handle a difficult situation.
Ps I just reread that email and I still Carnt believe it .. that should be a lesson .. she was presented with a simple easy way to end a situation and instead of taking it she is more or less proking a continuance.
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We have a meeting today.
I've been asked many times "What do you want to accomplish"?
I've thought about this a lot. I guess the answer is simply that I want my son to receive a good education. Part of that is this computers class taught by this teacher. I want him to feel comfortable in that classroom and not feel like it's a hostile learning environment.
I never wanted this teacher punished. I don't think we'll be able to move on until she presents a good apology to my son. One that makes him feel comfortable.
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We have a meeting today.
I've been asked many times "What do you want to accomplish"?
I've thought about this a lot. I guess the answer is simply that I want my son to receive a good education. Part of that is this computers class taught by this teacher. I want him to feel comfortable in that classroom and not feel like it's a hostile learning environment.
I never wanted this teacher punished. I don't think we'll be able to move on until she presents a good apology to my son. One that makes him feel comfortable.
Amen and well said. My anger gets me fired up but after I have time to think a situation through. I normally calm down. Very good way to look at it all. But I know there is always a but, That teacher needs to climb down off her high horse and either except what she did or some how work it out with your son.
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Well... little more to this.
I am still not sure how this will go down, or how the school will react. A co-worker mentioned that there is a liaison whose job is to deal with issues from surrounding schools and the US Air Force Base here. Turns out that being x-mil and working on the base allow me access to this persons resources.
I called for her opinion on what course of action I should take. She will be attending the meeting with us.
There's a second issue, besides the teacher striking my son. That is the lack of action by the Principal of my son's school. Even an accusation of a teacher striking a student should warrant calling the parent!
That attitude by the Principal leads me to believe that the school wants to try to sweep this away, which I wouldn't mind except the teacher's attitude just pisses me off.
I've taught my son that when he makes a mistake to admit to it, apologize, and deal with the consequences of it. If this teacher would have done that, then this would all be finished.
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Meeting results. Teacher will not ever admit to striking my son, period.
Superintendent, Principal, Dean of Students all in attendance. The teacher involved, another teacher taking notes with her (Teacher Union representative? they never explained her role). My wife and myself and the Base liaison.
Meeting began with the Superintendent allowing the teacher to explain her side. That began with a 2 minute delay while she blubbered away, unable to speak. Then she just repeated what was in the email, the class was unruly... etc... She says she doesn't remember striking my son and can't believe that she would have done it.
After she was done I said that we had hoped to get a good apology, but I could see that isn't going to happen. I told the faculty members "You have a teacher accused of striking a student and that's something YOU have to deal with".
I said "I've thought about this a lot over the weekend, trying to decide what exactly I want to accomplish from all this. What I want is for my son to receive a good education and feel comfortable in the class room, including computers".
They asked me how I thought we could achieve this. That's when my wife chimed in. "No. We don't need to tell you how this is going to happen, YOU need to tell us what your going to do to make our son comfortable".
The Superintendent recommended putting another adult into the classroom for a few weeks to make sure that my son is treated fairly, and to make him feel more comfortable in class. The adult will be in the room when my son is till the 17th of Dec (break) and we'll decide if we thing it's necessary after that.
It will be a social worker employed by the school. Young girl, maybe 23-24, but really nice. She knows my son already from the "Bully Class" she teaches.
And that's where we are at.
I told them a couple of times, once in the meeting and once after the teacher was excused, that I am not out to hang anyone. Dealing with a teacher striking a student was THEIR issue to deal with. I just want my son to be comfortable in class.
A few notes: The teacher not only refused to admit doing it, she wanted to bring in another adult who was in the classroom at the time to ask her what she saw. The Superintendent told her a couple of times "We are not bringing in anyone else". The Dean even said to her "If we bring in Mrs. XXXX (the other adult, she teaches the Special Ed in the same classroom at the same time as computers) then we'll need to bring in the students as well". The teacher said "well that's just students word against adults".
The feel I got was that they all know she did this, but they are unwilling to push it too much. Even the other teacher in the meeting who was taking notes (Union Rep?) often held her notepad over her mouth and whispered to this teacher several times. I could distinctly hear her say "SHUT UP" more then once.
After the meeting and the teacher was excused the Principal came to me and apologized for not contacting me right away. He felt the issue had been resolved but sees now that he should have gotten me involved right away, and taken a more active role in this from the beginning. I appreciated this. That was one of the main issues I had with the whole thing.
The faculity commended my son on his actions stating that he did exactly what he was supposed to do. The commended us on our actions, again stating that we had taken appropriate actions and been very level headed and diplomatic through the entire thing.
I'm encouraged by the feel I got. Again, I'm not out to hang this teacher, that's for the school to deal with. I hope my son will feel comfortable enough to attend her class without the social worker there, but I know that the teacher-student bond is gone forever.
My son said it best when we were driving home. I told him that she will never admit to striking him. He said "Dad, she's a coward".
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They asked me how I thought we could achieve this. That's when my wife chimed in. "No. We don't need to tell you how this is going to happen, YOU need to tell us what your going to do to make our son comfortable".
Amen on moms part there. It is their job to make things right and that was the right answer.
My son said it best when we were driving home. I told him that she will never admit to striking him. He said "Dad, she's a coward".
Some where along the line in her life no one taught her how to be an adult and own up to our own mistakes. My hat off to you cerveza for raising your son to the point where he knows this and can recognize it.
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You tell your boy I agree. :) There's something to be said for owning up to your mistakes. I got out of some fairly bad trouble once as a kid when I walked into court without an attourney (which I don't recommend) and told a judge that I was guilty, with extenuating circumstances, but that I know what I did was wrong, and would leave it in his capable hands to decide my fate. :) I got nearly completely out of trouble. heh I was lucky.
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I've always told my son that part of being a man is admitting to your mistakes, dealing with the consequences and learning from it. And that no matter what happens in his life - I will always be there to help him with that.
He's shown he's more responsible and perhaps more mature then this teacher. Not bad for an 11 yr old.
Very proud of how he's handled all of this.
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Commendations again for your son! You better get him some extra presents for Christmas, if not, I'll send him an old UO acct and get him addicted! (I'm not sure if that's a present or a punishment, but oh well)
I'm glad to see the principal stepped up and acknowledge that he thought it was resolved but now realizes that a little more should have been done just to be safe (and hopefully will be done in the future if anything similar happens to anyone).
Teacher probably thinks she's saving face and not realizing she's actually face planting. Any comments on her record about even so much as an accusation of abuse could grossly affect any future teaching positions, promotions, etc. Her loss though!
Glad everything worked out (and the social worker in the classroom will probably work out great...I've known/dealt with many at the daycare and most are exellently trained)
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An Corp
Got a surprise phone call this morning. It was the Superintendent from the school. He starts by saying there's no problem with my son... okay then....
He's asking if I would be willing to speak with the school's attorney regarding a disciplinary hearing for this teacher. Depending on how things go along, I may be asked to testify at the hearing in a few weeks.
Seems this teacher has had more "memory lapse strikings" then just with my son.
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An Corp
Got a surprise phone call this morning. It was the Superintendent from the school. He starts by saying there's no problem with my son... okay then....
He's asking if I would be willing to speak with the school's attorney regarding a disciplinary hearing for this teacher. Depending on how things go along, I may be asked to testify at the hearing in a few weeks.
Seems this teacher has had more "memory lapse strikings" then just with my son.
when i read that whole Chat back of this Threads it reminds me of my self many years ago. A Teacher went angry because i hadnt my homework, catched me and slapped me in face and kicked me out of his lessons.
I were really angry and stepped into the schools directory. The teacher later try to cover himself like i would like and he never intendet to slap me,but the whole class told the truth about what happend.That teacher only got a warning. They thought i would be a bad Student and may it was the only way to compare their anger against me.And i were forced to switch the class.
A half year later the Teacher were fired, because he slapped again a student.
Often it really depending on the Parents, if the School councils will interact. And its a shame when this happen because not all Childrens nowadays would tell this their parents.
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I will gladly report everything that happened to my son, and how the school dealt with it.
One thing about this, when we had "the meeting" I still got the feel that the Principal didn't think it a big deal. Kinda like he either didn't think it happened, or *if* it did happen - it wasn't a big deal.
This pretty much solidifies everything that my son said as 100% truth. I'll always wonder if maybe we should have taken things further when it happened to us... I left it to the school to decide what actions they wanted to take with their teacher. Now I can't help but wonder what else she has done? I don't want to feel responsible for other children being hurt by this teacher.
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The problem nowadays when People getting less paid, working hard, and havnt any other chances they start to avoid everything what needs more efforts. I hear and see it on many teachers here in Germany. Employee buddy from myself , her daugther is supreme intelectual and the teacher said she cant give her more tasks because she is a halftime teacher and dont work for free at home to check for some tasks for Childrens like her.
She dont want to make trips with their class after 12AM because she dont get paid after and she dont work more than she would get paid. She never participate on any actions after 12 AM and that makes it hard for all those mums who work and want to spend all other activities with their childrens.Otherwise some teacher on my Education school spending days and nights to get the best process of learning of us and trying all.
It really depending on the Schools itselfs, when they keep their employees under stress, let em less pay and they have nothing to keep their problems away. Some people burning out, some not.
And as i said, any problem need a solution, that means they must "work more" and they will try to avoid and cover all until they cant hold it anymore.
For yourself i think you can be proud, it really sounds you want the best for your Son, and even when he took the apoligize, Killing and say Sorry dont compare the matter. But its not a shame to take an apoligize.Childrens in that age need to learn about and iam sure next time if that would happen again, your son wouldnt take a simple "sorry".
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Wasn't around to read this initially, but I just wanted to post a thought I had while reading the original story as it unfolded.
(A little backstory) I was a *very* bad person ~10 years ago. I don't talk about these things, anymore, except as warnings. Since this conversation isn't about that, I will just say I was the kind of person you didn't want to be associated with. (enough backstory)
The teacher's reaction of "I don't remember" is the best possible thing she could have done. You don't deny it, because then you can be caught in a lie. You *NEVER* admit to doing it, because then you have hung yourself. As a person who has had to deal with being on the wrong side of the lawsuit/criminal charges/etc the absolute first thing a lawyer will tell you is "Shut up". Tell the truth. Cooperate. But, never admit to doing anything and be as vague as possible.
I know, it's not being a stand-up person. But, I just kind of wanted to shed some light on why she would hold that line even though everyone knows (or at least suspects) she is lying.
Also, big props on handling it like a true adult and not running off hot-headed and/or doing something stupid that would have caused more problems.
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Hmm...where to go on this....
I am an older person who, when i was younger, was routinely wupped by my teachers, then the principal and then by Father when I got home.
Looking at it in retrospect...I am going to stand out and say it was actually a very very very good thing. When I was disciplined, honestly speaking, it was almost always for a pretty good reason. I was a "high energy" child..what they would likely call ADD today...although it was just simply "hyperactive" back then. You controled your hyperactive children by working them hard and making sure you kept them focused on the task at hand. If that meant using "applied methods"...so be it.
Those who mistakenly think THEY are the sole responsibility for raising their children are delusional to the point where they may actually be the ones needing a swift slap up their ass. This type of thinking is both wrong and deluded. Society raises a child..the bearers of the spawn just do it part time. You HAVE to rely on the others around you to fill out the rest. Those people MUST have methods of control.
The combined actions of teachers, with whom you spend a greater deal of your waking young life around, and my parents kept me under control.... in a child that could have easily gone out of control.
Thanx to that strict control, I (and my brothers and sisters) were all able to grow up and flourish. No-one went to jail, no drugs..etc.
My father only had trouble once, when a teacher was just being a bit on the mean side..they took care of it between themselves. There is no need to involve any anyone or anything else.
Given that any child now-a-days spends more time with their teachers than with their parents...it is important that they have a well proven avenue of controling the children.
With all proper deserved disrespect and disdain to Dr. Spock and the tofu eating dumb ass generations that have been raised since that putz was able to weasel into our society, It would do all of us, and society in general, if we went back to what thousands of years has always showed us upright animals how to properly control and raise our own animals...err children.
If I was put in this situation, it would have simply been me and the teacher hashing it out ourselves and the child would be back in that class learning and doing what they were supposed to immediately with no excuses.
Instead of fomenting the "entitled" type of society..it would be best to instead push responsibility and understanding (meaning the teacher may have made a mistake but no harm done..as long as it doesn't happen again).
I would thank the teacher for maintaining discipline on my child and express a hope that they did not make a mistake. Benefit of doubt must be given the teacher, to maintain the rule of respect your elders. The child is told to tighten their belt, get back into classroom and behave in such a fashion that a repeat incident is not necessary.
I may be old school but something to think about...people always say "things were better" back then. Well..there is a darn good reason and we all need to get back under control..both parents and our children. It is a group effort. Sorry to say but realistically..most folks today, from the last 2-3 generations are not capable of raising children properly. They were not raised correctly and thus lack the very foundation of knowledge that any good parent / teacher needs.
Never ever forget the real basics here; We are animals..raising animals. All animals respond to certain stimuli better than others. Sharp non-permanent pain has the ability to sufficiently imprint the importance of the given concept or behaviorial path deeply within the cranial material...to a certain point.
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When I was a kid I grew up with the same discipline you did SS: teachers could and did knock the crap out of you and if you complained to your parents you generally got another round. My fifth grade teacher, Sister Sue, had a big wooden paddle for hitting her students. She didn't limit herself though, she would hit you with whatever was handy. My dad got physical with us until I made it clear to him that I would knock his teeth out if he tried it again. Parenting like that wasn't all that unusual, but just because I was raised by parents who lacked parenting skills and I turned out relatively sane doesn't validate the program.
When I was a kid we also thought you needed to slap the crap out of a dog and rub its nose in its own poop to house train it. Now I realize that if you have to hit your dog, or your kid, all you are doing is demonstrating that you are inept as a parent.
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I'm having some issues recently with my daughter's 6th grade teacher and I have just called the principal of the school tonight and left a message requesting a meeting to discuss my concerns.
Now here's the thing, I am definitely not one of those parents that believe in raising kids that are expectant of society to take care of them when it is my job as a parent to transfer the skills that they need in order to take care of themselves. I also believe that there are some major problems with the current public-culture and attitude toward raising kids nowadays that tends to veer toward development of an attitude of "entitlement". However, when it comes to the disclipine of my kids there are some things that cross the line and verbal or physical abuse falls into this category.
I don't hit my kids; never have and I never intend to. Interestingly enough I still have kids that are at least reasonably well-behaved (nobody is perfect and making mistakes is part of the learning process). I will not tolerate anyone else thinking that they should have the right to abuse my kids, especially those in the role of a teacher. I would be more than happy to meet someone who has violated my tolerance in this way one-on-one and "take care" of the issue straight away (I can be pretty scary believe it or not), but our culture does not tolerate this method of deailing with justice anymore than my intolerance of the injustice to begin with.
The next, least rash step is to communicate with those who need to be communicated with. In my case, the teacher has been verbally abusive with the kids including, but not limited to telling them on a number of occasions that they "pissed him off", they "suck" because they weren't behaving, and that they are "acting like assholes" just to name a few things. Far from physical abuse, yes, but this is not tolerable behavior for a teacher.
From there are just a number of temper-tantrum induced, ridiculous mass-bannings or punishments driven by the fact that the teacher is not good at his job and does not get the respect from some of the kids. For example, taking away snack time for everyone because a kid left an apple-core on the floor of the lunch room - my daughter has low blood sugar and relies on this snack in order to make it through the day. Or taking away access to their lockers because a couple of kids abused the privilege when my wife and I rely on my daughter having access to her locker in order for things like jackets and lunch boxes not to be lost or ruined. Removing recess from all kids because of the behavior of one kid is another one that's not ok with me, kids need to exercise and will be better behaved as well as better students when given the opportunity; this method may work in basic training but not with elementary school kids.
I've decided most of these issues are minor concerns which I will address with the teacher directly. However, when it comes to verbal abuse this is something I will take up with the teachers boss and allow my daughter to remain anonymous to the teacher else he start taking his behavior issues to the next level with her because of this. I have a call in to the principal as the first step in the process.
X
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I am with you on the entitlement issue 100%. My family is a good control group to demonstrate that beatings don't moderate a sense of entitlement. My parents were completley abusive by today's standards and have nine kids. 50% of those capable of choosing are self sufficient, and the other 50% are entitled takers. The more you get involved in helping them, the less they do for themselves. One of the nine is schizophrenic and I don't think you can include her as she is not accountable for most of her decisions. She is the smartest of the lot of us though.
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I went back and read Cerveza's original posting, and though I believe in deserved punishment, it sounded like that teacher was having a Midol moment, and didn't need to be taking it out on one of her students.
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Exactly, and it appears she has had more, or enough to warrant a "disciplinary hearing".
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In my opinion Cerveza, you handled this perfectly and your son will take a lot from seeing how it was handled....
My stepson is a Headmaster (principle/dean equivilent for you guys?), so i see the inside workings of a school......
His school supplys education in a deprived area, and unfortunately 80% of the parents think/let the school bring up their children, in our country it seems to be a growing trend.
Yet when any of the children are unruly or violent and dealt with by the teachers (much of the violence they learn/see from home) then the parents are in the school shouting from the rooftops, sometimes it can be a thankless task....
In your case the situation was easy to have been put to bed, the principle/dean should have taken immediate responsibilty and forced the teacher to apologise and then dealt with the teacher in whatever way the guidelines lay down.....
There was no need to have let this go on as long as it did.
Being a teacher (expecialy in the UK) is an extremely stressfull job, a large % of the kids in the bigger citys know that they are almost invulnerable and will use this to their advantage.......
Hopefully your son feels comfortable enough to continue learning in that class, although i dont foresee the teacher lasting much longer in the job, she sounds like she is on the edge of a nervous breakdown......
Hope all goes well.....
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I just read the whole thing too. I believe you were in the right Cerv. You did the right thing and taught your son a very important lesson. There was NO disrespect to the teacher in how he handled it. Respect goes both way. True respect is respect of the person and not the title. Being in the military we say alot, i will respect the rank, but i will not respect the person. To be a true leader you need the respect of the people for the type of person you are. Your son is well on that way.
With the teacher, the only reason you would need a "couple" days to compose yourself it to make up your excuses. It is not hard to apologize for something as simple as that. They were on their way when they said they do not remember, and if they did they are sorry. That could have been expanded upon and say, that they did not realize that they did it. If they have done any wrong it was not their intent and that they will make every effort to make it up to the child. That last part is what was missing that showed the sincerity. Maybe they don't remember it, but they needed to be humble and just take it for what it was worth. You are not degrading your integrity by apologizing for something. There are many times that i apologize for something that i did not do, but because it was one of my subordinates that did it, an apology is warranted from me. I did not prevent them from doing it. I must not have trained them well enough to not do it, so therefore some blame rests with me.
However just remember, reasoning is an excuse. If you want a reason from someone you are asking for an excuse. Too many people now seem to want to know why something happened, but will not listen to the story or reason and just say they don't want excuses. This is a misleading concept. No excuses means don't ask why. Just say you did it, sucks that it happened, change it and MOVE ON. (Sorry for the last paragraph as a rant. Has nothing to do with anything Cerv did, just an observation.)
For those that say It happened to me when i was a child and nothing is wrong with me. Sorry, there is something wrong with you. Basic human liberties is a very valuable thing. This can only be taught by you as a parent. Discipline is one thing. Consequence for action. However when it comes to physical discipline, the punishment nearly never meets the crime. I do spank, and i do hit my son's hand. However i never do it out of anger and i don't show anger when i do it. I do not want my child to bring anger and hitting together. If it is meant for discipline there should be no emotion involved. When i was "disciplined" as a child, i was hit out of anger. Anger is the root of our problem. Did i turn out bad because i was hit? No because i did learn from it. I learned what i would not do. I learned alternative ways. If you need to use an object to instill discipline, you need to look at how well disciplined you are. However i do believe that there is not one way to teach a child. One might learn more from pain, and the other might learn more from emotion. We will learn this as our children grow. Just remember, if you are going to regret it the second after you do it, or you might feel the least bit guilty about it, you have drawn past your own line that your own beliefs have drawn. We do this alot with things we say and things we do. We teach ourselves very valuable lessons. Just be receptive of this.
*Steps off soap box*
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I have to appear this morning and give testimony. I'll let ya know how things turn out.
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Be sure to wear your best "kiss my ass" tee-shirt. lol Good luck with it.
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Turns out they didn't need my testimony. Guess they had enough ammo without me.
They said *if* they need me it'll be tomorrow afternoon.
This was a hearing she requested. I guess when a tenured teacher gets fired, there is an automatic appeal process. I guess this is it.
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Sounds like they had more dirt on this teacher....
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When I was a child of your son's age, I probably would have grabbed a solid object and savagely beat the living hell out of said teacher. I have had strong feelings about respect since a very early age and battery would have supplied me with ample justification for a violent response.
As an adult, I would have sued the school. I can't give a legal opinion but unwanted touching constitutes battery. It's a crime and tort. If I had been in your situation, said teacher would have lost their job, ended up on probation(not a very severe offense) and you would be typing your response to this from your beach house on a delightful Caribbean island.
Though your response was level headed. The teacher was way out of line given the facts you provided.